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Don't Any Monks Know How to Play Anymore?

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Oct 19, 2005, 07:19 AM // 07:19	#21
Rico Carridan Krytan Explorer Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Eternal Comrades Profession: E/Mo	No, the point is, every player on the team should be doing their job properly. As a warrior, my job is to make sure that as many of the monsters we are presently engaging are focussing their attention on me, because I have the most health and the highest armor of anyone on the team. Additionally, my job is to use the skills available to me to help the heaviest damage dealers of the team kill the monsters as quickly as possible. The monk's job is to make sure that everyone stays alive and is in a condition where they can do their jobs properly. What I can't understand is why you're getting so worked up about this. If you look at the monk's skillset, compared with any other class, obviously monks are the best set up to deal with conditions, and are arguably the best (a fast casting mesmer might be better) at removing hexes. But then again, the other 4 classes have practically no way to deal with hexes at all, and warriors, elementalists and mesmers have basically no way to deal with conditions (and necros can generally only help themselves). For that matter, mesmers, rangers, and to a lesser extent elementalists, don't even really have a way to heal themselves. I guess the question really is, why should I bother having monks in my party at all, if me and every other player on my team is going to have to invest skills, attribute points, and energy into doing the work that the monk should be doing anyway? Rico

Oct 19, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32	#22
Arcanis the Omnipotent Jungle Guide Join Date: Sep 2005 Guild: Nova Alliance Profession: Me/	I didnt say anything about healing your character yourself, I said taking care of it. If you cant take care of your own character, you shouldnt be expecting them to do it. Also, these roles you think the classes fill. Sorry to burst your bubble, but most people dont play in pigeon whole builds set to a certain standard. The monk will heal, but probably also has some points in smite or protection. Edit: Also, all your definitions about what a class can and cant do, just throws out any knowledge of a dual class system. A mesmer cant do any condition fixing, but if they were to be a Mesmer Necro they could. Which is why there are alot of them out there. Like I said, you have a secondary, deal with the problem. Last edited by Arcanis the Omnipotent; Oct 19, 2005 at 07:35 AM // 07:35..

Old

Oct 19, 2005, 07:37 AM // 07:37

#23

Rico Carridan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Guild: Eternal Comrades

Profession: E/Mo

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

You seem to neglect the energy strain a monk may experience. Most monks STILL don't carry some type of energy management, so don't expect them to spam condition/hex removals

I still see monks in tombs that don't run energy management. I just can't figure it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

Tips to help:
1. Take a self-use condition or hex removal. It's not hard; try it.

I run W/Me and hence have no access to condition removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

2. Coordinate the mission before hand. >.> (Should probably be #1, but I have no hope a PUG could do it.)

I have a hard enough time getting people to organize properly in PvP. I'd love it if I could get this to work, but I won't hold my breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

3. Don't attack through Spiteful Spirit.

Obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

People running through an area for their first time on a monk won't know whether to take Condition or Hex removal to be more effective; most monks just spam breeze as their condition "nullifier."

By the point in the game I'm referring to, I think these skills should be in your skillbar for any mission. As far as breeze is concerned, well, it deals with burning, disease, poison, and cripple well enough, I suppose. That just leaves all the more dangerous conditions. Sorry, I really hate this spell.

I

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

, personally, don't bother with condition removals after the crystal desert. Everything that's causing a condition is being spammed, so there's no point in removing something that's going right back on. I'd rather outheal bleeding than keep spamming mend ailment to try and stop it.

I don't bother mending something like bleeding. The big ones to get rid of are dazed, blind, weakness, and disease. Cripple is nice to get rid of in certain areas too. Poison is a toss-up, since of all conditions, it is the most readily spammable. Of course, in PvP, the rules are a little different. I can think of a number of times where I've been asked to run martyr as the party's condition cleanser.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

I've also grown quite fond of Holy Veil for taking out a pesky hex. It also doesn't hurt to keep in mind that a warrior isn't usually at the top of the hex removal list. >.>

I always have holy veil on my bar for my monk. I've never had a hex removed while playing my warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken

Monk hate isn't cool anymore;

I've never been particularly interested in being politically correct.

Rico

Rico Carridan is offline

Old

Oct 19, 2005, 07:39 AM // 07:39

#24

Zonzai

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Profession: E/

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected]

With 4 monks, one should have been creative enough to bring some condition and hex removal or atleast bring up the issue.

/agreed

Zonzai is offline

Old

Oct 19, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

#25

Rico Carridan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Guild: Eternal Comrades

Profession: E/Mo

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Also, these roles you think the classes fill. Sorry to burst your bubble, but most people dont play in pigeon whole builds set to a certain standard. The monk will heal, but probably also has some points in smite or protection.

Actually, most people do play in "pigeon whole builds set to a certain standard." There are certainly some people who think outside the box, but most builds are variants on fairly basic themes. When you see a W/Mo, R/E, E/Me, Mo/Me, etc, you pretty much know what you're getting before they ever join the party, particularly in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Edit: Also, all your definitions about what a class can and cant do, just throws out any knowledge of a dual class system. A mesmer cant do any condition fixing, but if they were to be a Mesmer Necro they could. Which is why there are alot of them out there.

Like I said, you have a secondary, deal with the problem.

You're still leaving out a great many class combinations that can't deal with certain problems, many of which are some of the most popular class combinations that people use:

W/R - no hex removal, limited condition removal, very common build
W/E - no hex or condition removal very common build
W/N - no hex removal, common build
W/Me - no condition removal
R/W - no hex removal, limited condition removal,
R/E - no hex removal, limited condition removal, common build
R/Me - limited condition removal, common build
Me/W - no condition removal, common build (they don't need it as much as others, though)
Me/R - limited condition removal
Me/E - no condition removal, common build
E/W - no hex or condition removal
E/R - no hex removal, limited condition removal, common build
E/Me - no condition removal very common build
E/N - no hex removal, common build
N/W - no hex removal, common build
N/R - no hex removal, common build
N/E - no hex removal

That's 17 builds that lack at least one of hex or condition removal (or have just antidote signet, which does not treat all conditions). Of those, about 7 have neither hex nor total condition removal. That means about a third of all class combinations lack at least one, and about a seventh lack both. That means on any given team, it is reasonable to expect that at least one player should be playing a class that has no way of dealing with conditions or hexes, and at least two more who lack the capacity to deal with one or the other assuming they chose to bring all the necessary skills to do so. Many of these builds are quite effective; some of them are incredibly effective.

Rico

Rico Carridan is offline

Oct 19, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02	#26
aron searle Jungle Guide Join Date: Aug 2005 Profession: Mo/	Im sorry this is just lame, your part of a TEAM. That means your all responsible for staying alive, just blaming the monks is pointless. Were they all healers? Did some of them take smite skills, did you communicate with them, if they didnt communicate back just leave. If im in a group that dosnt answere any of my questions or talk to me before leaving, i just go. As to bringing mend condition ect, i think thats a matter of choice. Personally i dont see the point, as anything you remove is 90% of the time just re-aplied (or another spell is), i always found it a waste of energy. I find using dywanas kiss (sp?) & healing breeze more helpfull in nullifiying hex spells & better for energy management, again though this is personal choice and others will disagree.

Old

Oct 19, 2005, 08:08 AM // 08:08

#27

burai

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Fishermen's Haven

Profession: W/

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Carridan

What I can't understand is why you're getting so worked up about this.

Good point. So why are you so worked up?

Stick Out Tongue

burai is offline

Oct 19, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13	#28
Numa Pompilius Grotto Attendant Join Date: May 2005 Location: At an Insit.. Intis... a house. Guild: Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF] Profession: W/Me	I haven't played monk all that much, but I do always bring hex removal. Condition removal... Sometimes, but most of the time it just seems pointless. Usually you have 4-5 people with a condition on them (you don't know which, except if it's poison), you can remove condition on one of them for 5 energy every three seconds, and the enemy WILL reapply it instantly. I could stand around spamming mend ailment all day, and noone would get healed and noone would actually be free of conditions for more than a second. In the end it just saves me a lot of work - and energy - to slap healing breeze on, and let it negate the degen. No, it's not very effective, but at 13 healing prayers it does do 160 points healing over 10 seconds for 10 energy (and has less tendency to overheal), meaning I can pay more attention to the other members of the team. Frankly warriors generally aren't the main damage dealers either, so as long as they're alive it doesn't matter horribly if they don't do as much damage as they optimally could. I'd much rather take a second hex removal than condition removal, partly because of the long(ish) cooldown on remove hex, and partly because hexes are bigger threats than conditions. Also, sometimes you just get bright ideas for a build which turns out not to work. I took an enchantments/blessed signets build to PvP yesterday, and, well, let's just say it didn't perform as well as I'd hoped... But yeah, I agree, lvl 20 monks which do not even know what hex/condition removal IS, have been run too much, too far. Last edited by Numa Pompilius; Oct 19, 2005 at 08:27 AM // 08:27..

Oct 19, 2005, 08:48 AM // 08:48	#29
Fantus Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005	I agree that with 4 monks, one could have brought Hex/Condition Removals. But more often then not, monks are not part of a "Salvation Army" that large. More often then not, I am the ONLY monk in a group of 8. I can't heal, protect AND remove conditions AND remove hexes AND conserve my energy in a way to keep the healing constantly coming all at the same time, you know. If I know that I am entering an area with heavy conditioning/hex casting by enemies, I tend to take Healing Breeze with me and just slap it on people with high heath degen to negate its effects. It works pretty fine and it allows me to quickly switch my attention to the next player requiring my services. Yes, I am using that method in SF, too (which is quite heavy on conditions and hexes). Yes, I am able to keep my team alive there despite I don't carry ANY hex/condition removal. If 4 monks were not able to keep you alive, either a) the 4 monks all sucked b) the other 4 players all sucked or c) all 8 players sucked My personal advice would be to designate a monk secondary player to carry hex/condition removal as you don't need to spend that much attribute points into monking to do that effectively enough. By the way, assuring that the team brings useful skills is not the MONK's job, it's the PARTY LEADER's job!

Oct 19, 2005, 08:58 AM // 08:58	#30
burai Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: May 2005 Location: Fishermen's Haven Profession: W/	My monk is also built on the basis that I will be the only monk in a PuG, so I will carry Breeze instead of hex/condition removal. Occasionally I will pack hex removal in my wildcard slot, but I generally find mobs are better at spamming hexes and conditions than they are at enchantment removal.

Oct 19, 2005, 10:06 AM // 10:06	#31
Sister Rosette Lady Fie Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sapporo Guild: Tha Skulls [Ts] Profession: D/W	I'm saying this to the OP in closing, then getting the hell out of this train wreck. If you KNOW the classes you play don't have a way to remove conditions, you really have no right to bitch about how others failed to bring skills to cover YOUR shortcomings. They have to keep the entire party going, not just you. You're a meatshield, nothing more. You are between the casters and the baddies that want to mash them to paste. They need to keep you ALIVE, not condition free so you can land that whole 10-12 damage on a Mursaat. Im sorry if it seems jaded but I'm sick of hearing warriors scream about how they're the big damage dealers of the party. Blind, Dazed, and the like aren't 'lethal' conditions for a melee class. Just wait em out and let the monks concentrate on healing.

Oct 19, 2005, 10:17 AM // 10:17	#32
aron searle Jungle Guide Join Date: Aug 2005 Profession: Mo/	Indeed. When im playing my warrior i bring hex / condition removals but i never really bother to use them on myself its never worth it, there always re-applied. Instead i bring them to use on the monks or other casters if i see they have lots of degen or arrows. But my monk never brings them. If you want someone to bring them, ask before hand. Just dont go into a hissy fit if the monks dont want to bring them.

Oct 19, 2005, 10:28 AM // 10:28	#33
Shaquira Academy Page Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: Lowlands Strike Force (LSF) Profession: E/Mo	My main character is a monk and often the only monk in a SF PUG. What i notice is that way to many ppl tend to rely on the healing power we have and not bring any defenses, heals, removals themselves. I have played in a team with 3 Wa/Mo's and never once went below half energy keeping them all fit and well because they were also minding their own. I also played with full groups that drained me completely in the first fight out of the gates and still not having killed all enemies at the end of my energy bar. Also some ppl run/sprint ahead and attack, seemingly not knowing that if i have to move to heal it may be too late especially since some ppl get themselves killed in less than 2 seconds. There is no way a monk will be able to save you unless she was prepared for the event. On the topic of condition removal ... i run a divine boon build that uses condition removal ... so even if it is re-applied immediately at least i will also get off a good heal. But the fact is .. as many ppl stated before it WILL be re-applied immediately most of the time .. so in a sense it is rather pointless to do it. Shakira Lowlander

Oct 19, 2005, 10:44 AM // 10:44	#34
Finch Academy Page Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Accident Prone [AP]	I play a monk, and im pretty sure i do my job. Whenever i join a group i say primary healer, which means no condition or hex removal. If its not what they are looking for I just switch to protection and get condition and hex removal. Not that hard on my part.

Oct 19, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02	#35
Former Ruling Grotto Attendant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cedartown, Georgia Profession: R/	The main thing you should do as party leader is check on what skills your people are bringing. Dont get INTO a mission and then after the first fight ask "You didn't bring [insert skill]?!" Also when asking don't get pushy and say "RUN THESE SKILLS" - everyone plays how they like, but tell them the kinds of skills they should run for that mission - They might not know....

Oct 19, 2005, 11:43 AM // 11:43	#36
Kabale Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: UK Guild: Portrayors of Valour [pV]	As noted sporadically, removal of conditions is a prot monk's job. He can pull of a heal equal to an orison with a med ailment/mend condition/restore condition. Both heal and prot should bring at least 1 hex removal. I'd quickly rid a warrior of his blindness because I'd rather have him do some dmg (anyone ever heard of condition removal on enemies, besides the guy that uses martyr elite??).

Old

Oct 19, 2005, 01:11 PM // 13:11

#37

aron searle

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Profession: Mo/

Default

Quote:

I'd quickly rid a warrior of his blindness because I'd rather have him do some dmg (anyone ever heard of condition removal on enemies, besides the guy that uses martyr elite??).

See i think this comes down to personal preferance.

When i play my warrior i dont expect the monk to remove blindness ect, i bring my own condition remover spells (though i tend to save them for other casters). Before i played as a monk i just assumed that it was too much of an energy drain for them, and now im playing as one this is what i find to be the case (energy vs benifit).

I think it just comes down to what the monk wants to take really, its too close cut to say one way is better over the other IMO.

aron searle is offline

Oct 19, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15	#38
asdar Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005	I played my first character, which was a monk through and lost 3 times total for all missions in the game and I never took condition removal once. The game is way too easy. Make conditions do some real damage and then it's worth bringing, otherwise I'll always take some smiting to get the boring things finished quicker. I took Hex removal but conditions almost never kill people unless they're stupid, it certainly never cost me a mission.

Oct 19, 2005, 01:23 PM // 13:23	#39
Hate Academy Page Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Lions Arch	I can't begin to count how many threads were created about this.

Old

Oct 19, 2005, 01:37 PM // 13:37

#40

striderkaaru

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Guild: Scars Meadows [SMS], Retired Officer

Profession: W/

Default

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

I got pissed right about here.

First off, if you're so worried about hexes and conditions, maybe you should
(zoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomg!) BRING SOME REMOVAL OF YOUR
OWN. Don't pin a shortsighted choice on the people keeping your ass alive.

Oh wait, that's 99% of people in game. I almost forgot.

My god, you didn't have a smooth infusion run. Let's all go to the mountains
for you. Be thankful you only have to do the run one time nowadays, the last
one I ran on you had to go 1 run per piece of armor. Also, since when does
running to get infused entail tangling with the Mursaat? Sounds like an idiotic
meatpuppet decided to be a hero.

(GLARE)

Only one of the Azures on the mission has Spiteful Spirit, the rest are
monks who use Signet of Judgement. Do your homework next time.

In short, shit went wrong, people were stupid, and your first infusion run
didn't go well. Boo freaking hoo. Suck it up and try again.

Only a shit player blames everything on the monks.

ZomG!! shUT Up and ReZ!!shift1oneone!!!11!

striderkaaru is offline

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